Jess said: I know that she’s inappropriate in many ways. And yet ... I’m really uncomfortable gathering round to marvel at her outfit’s inappropriateness. Something about that feels really wrong to me.I mean it when I say that Nana is great-looking, and that I would like more people to wear what feels right for them. It makes me SO HAPPY when someone who “shouldn’t” be wearing something does and really owns it. (Especially if they are not thin. In general I find plumper to be more attractive—I would go for zaftig if I played for that team—but I also love when someone just says “screw it, I think I look good and I’m wearing it.”) Nana’s outfit was not outrageous in a vacuum. (Two years ago, maybe even in a near vacuum.) Kate is right that what bothers me most is that it’s an illustration of her “it’s all about me and my reality” and her overly sexualized (in my opinion) approach to things.
I said: I’m guessing you don’t like the Glamour “Don’t” section! I think I can see where you’re coming from, but it doesn’t feel wrong to me ... maybe because I put myself up for debate too. I find the question of what to wear as we age very interesting, and I know I’m willing to laugh at myself and to feel envy of Nana in certain ways. But! Maybe I’m just falling into the mean girl trap?
Jess said: You guessed right. I think there’s two parts of this, for me. One is that you don’t really care for this woman, and snarking at her outfit feels like you said, a little bit like a mean-girls kind of thing. The other is I cannot STAND when people say “oh, she really shouldn’t be wearing that” (meaning, I assume, “that’s not flattering on her” and often directed at those who are fat or old). I think everyone should be wearing exactly what they want to wear. (Work attire may be an exception to that.) I also think the idea that they should do otherwise often comes dangerously close to the idea that what we wear should always be about making ourselves attractive, or that there is a “right” (patriarchally approved) way to dress at any given age. I guess the third part of it, for me, is that I just don’t see her outfit as all that sexy.
Kate said: Jess, I agree with you completely, with two important caveats. That the issue was not really whether it is flattering or not, and that children’s events seem in a similar category to me to work. It’s basically about this being a sexy outfit. Whether or not the person wearing it is attractive to you, the outfit signifies sexuality. I am LOATHE to enter into this realm because it smacks a bit of “well, she deserved it, she was wearing a short skirt” and women’s bodies being public property. It’s that difficult thing of a person being more than their clothes, but we also choose our clothes to say something about us. Just like we modulate our appearance for work, the same goes for children’s events, in that it is NOT ABOUT YOU. Having a mother who is very much like this myself, I’d say it’s another sign of “my reality trumps your reality.”
I feel guilty about the snarking/mocking flavor (sounds like a new gelato!) I have generated. Just because it makes me feel better doesn’t mean it’s right.
So! As promised, I will show what I wore to the event (these were the only photos in which I appeared, sorry they’re blurry):
Things that I KNOW someone somewhere was thinking (don’t bother arguing; maybe you didn’t think so but someone must have):
- Dress is a bit short, isn’t it? She can get down on the floor, but just barely.
- Check out the bony-crony back on her! Probably time to put away the halter tops!
- Awful lot of skin showing for a kid’s party. It’s hot out, but not THAT hot.
- Flat up top, meaty legs – couldn’t she find a more flattering dress?
- Five pounds of sugar in a ten-pound sack.
- I’m pretty sure she got that at H&M – for god’s sake, she has white hair! Get that woman out of the juniors section!
If you think that there is such a thing as “appropriate,” how do you personally decide where the line is?
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18 comments:
This discussion is pretty interesting, especially considering the recent "SlutWalks" across the country. (Feminists marching to bring awareness to the fact that there is no such thing as "asking for it," no matter what you wear.)
I've been trying to figure out how I decide what is appropriate. I generally use the rule that if someone is dressing in such a way that is disruptive in a setting where disruptions are unwelcome (work, school, children's events), then it is inappropriate. Otherwise, who cares? Also, disruptive clothing on the street is A-OK with me, especially if it makes me think or laugh.
Personally, I kind of liked Nana's birthday outfit this year, minus the uncomfortable-looking shoes. You looked fantastic as well.
I think the question of how I consider what's appropriate is interesting, raised by Sally. I'm not sure I wholly buy into "if it's disruptive", because whether something is disruptive might depend on others applying rules I'd consider inappropriate (like opposing a fat or old woman wearing an outfit they find unattractive). I think my rules are that roughly folks should have the same amount of their body covered as other people in the same setting, and I'd probably admit that size matters a bit in that determination, because the same shirt might uncover more on one person than another.
Now, practically, looking at your b-day party outfit, I'd certainly consider Nana's outfit as appropriate as yours. The length, skin exposure, ability to deal with small children are all similar in my view. And, it appears that Nana was a lot more likely to be standing around with a drink in her hand, while you were actually moving around, thus raising the requirements of your outfit compared to hers.
Since I consider age and body shape to be irrelevant in the discussion, I'm with Nana on what might be considered appropriate for this b-day party, given the standard your setting with your own outfit.
Now, the other question is whether other moms were also dressed as you are -- clearly dress standards are different in different areas (and, I think yours is warmer than mine, which has effects of its own). It would be unusual for a mom to be wearing a halter dress in our town at a child's birthday party, actually, very unusual. Some folks even have an opinion about halter dresses as being inherently inappropriate. But I live in the land of almost no summer. We're more covered up here, but that's definitely influenced by just being cold!
Your outfit might even get talked about in my crowd, though not by me, 'cause I think it's fine. I just think Nana's is, too. Oddly, I think we actually have more grandmothers who dress like the picture you've shown of Nana than we do moms who dress like you.
(oops, that's me, zb)
Yes! "It's not about you," that is what I was trying to get at, but your whole dissection of the matter is much better phrased.
I guess--and this is another place where my thoughts are vaguely formed--for me, sexuality and dress do not take place in a vacuum. Usually they depend in some manner on the response of others, and even invite it. This is a very tricky and complicated realm and I am 100% NOT of the "she dressed a certain way so she deserved it" school--an extreme variation on this way of thought.
I don't feel like I can fully compare your outfit to Nana's without the same shot and perspective (and the shoes! what about the shoes?!). But given that, and my bias toward you :) it strikes me differently for some very subtle and cultural reasons: the colors, the parts of the body it accentuates and deemphasizes, your body type, etc. For example, your slenderness up top makes a halter top look athletic; feels very different from a low neckline that frames cleavage. Even hair and makeup (and shoes!) can really affect how I interpret an outfit. Your outfit with flip-flops would have a very different vibe than if you wore the same sandals Nana wore.
I would not look at Nana's outfit and say "OMG! Totally inappropriate!" I would say, hmm, that skirt length plus those shoes plus that neckline plus the solid white ... a little much.
Appropriate: there is a level of sexuality in dress that I honestly don't want to see in anyone outside a photo shoot. Even if you're young and nubile, usually I don't want to see your thong or deep inside your cleavage. That said, the only time I would actually find a style of dress "inappropriate" in a borderline offensive way is at a child-centered event or a formal event that's meant to honor, observe, or celebrate others (wedding, etc.). Not because children will be traumatized but because they are not sexual beings and it's not the right forum for getting sexy.
For myself, I'm getting strict. I'm not in love with my body (see: cellulite). When it's in better shape I wear things that are trimmer or shorter. I would like to look attractive but I'm not interested in drawing comment.
P.S. My comment was really about women, and since I'm straight I want to be fair: I'm trying to think if there is a "sexy dress" look, equivalent to showing your thong, that I'd like to see on a man. There's the tight t-shirt but that's really not the same. Other than the Speedo-type swimsuit, I can't think of a parallel. Their whole clothing language is so different: simpler and freer.
I think you both look great and appropriate, although Nana's style is not to my personal liking. I think if I knew her, and how she acts, I would be bothered more by how she dressed because I would know the context (still proving she's a T-I-G-E-R). Context is everything.
So ... about the ceasefire? Cuz I'm in desperate need of a positive example or model.
re: accessories/context: I was wearing these shoes and a little lipstick, otherwise unadorned. The hair isn't much more than what you can see. Those pics captured my dress riding way up - it grazes the knee when I stand - but there isn't a lot of material there, I grant you.
zb - I am trying to wrap my mind around a no-summer, no-halter top place ... sounds like Mongolia!
Interesting: Nana's comment on FB today when she saw one of the bday party pictures: "Why did I wear such a short skirt?" (I didn't say, "I've been trying to figure that out with a couple hundred of my friends ...")
yes, yes, ceasefire, working on it.
The pacific northwest. Really. We pretty much wear fleece in the summer. There are a few warm days, but I don't think I've seen a halter top on a woman (only children). We do occasionally wear tank tops.
In 2011, in June, the average high temperature was 67 degrees; the maximum was 78 degrees. July & August can be warmer. It rains a lot, too.
We swim in wetsuits, too :-)
(zb)
I like the dress and think you look very nice. It is NOT too short. It is a summer dress! My back is bony like that too, but whatever. I still rock the halter/tank top. And you do not have meaty legs! What are you even talking about?
For the record, there is nothing wrong with H&M.
Nana is simply Nana. And I am guessing for every year that she attend's HB's party, we will get a picture of her outfit...because, if she follows the course of a true narcassist and sinks deeper into the importance of herself, those outfits will cross some line - since it is all about her.
I disagree with the comment early on that your outfit and Nana's are relatively similar in terms of appropriateness. Amount of skin shown is not the sole criteria for judging an outfit's appropriateness for a given situation. Also, your back looks good to me!
I think that conversations about what's appropriate to wear and at what age are most often inspired by some sort of feeling of self-dissatisfaction within the commenter. People who feel good about themselves and their lives don't usually feel moved to harshly judge the appropriateness of what others are wearing. Or it's inspired by a dislike of the person being scrutinized. If I like someone I'm unlikely to see their outfit as problematic. If I find someone mean or really unsympathetic, my judgmental side is more apt to kick in.
But I think people should wear what makes them feel good, in general, and I don't tend to have a problem per se with older people wearing "young" clothes as long as it seems like it works for them, fits their style and personality. And as long as it doesn't seem like a desperate attempt to deny that aging happens - but that's a judgment call too. It's hard, though, when so often it seems like our choices as women are the juniors section or the old lady section. (Or really expensive clothes that manage to hit a tasteful but still flattering and fun mode that's relatively rare at less pricey venues.)
Context is all - imagine if Nana were a warm, loving grandma who just lost a bunch of weight or is starting to date after a tough divorce. VERY different reaction here, I bet, even if we thought the outfit was borderline and she should lose the shoes.
In the context of "Nana is an narcissistic hyper-sexualized on-going problem for her son and his family and can't put it away even for her grandson's birthday?" In the context of "it's still all about HER, even at a 7th birthday party"? Of *course* there's criticism.
Here's mine: the dress is right on the edge, but the shoes take it to hoochieville. They are too shiny for the knit dress, too sexxxx-ay! combined with the showing of a lot of leg for a daytime event, and too dressy for a child's birthday party.
The shoes would have worked paired with linen trousers. The dress would have been more appropriate with flat sandals or something like your Campers (which I love. Can I wear them to work?)
I love your dress and there's nothing inappropriate about it on your body. I'd totally wear it if I were built like you.
Thanks for posting this. What I'm taking away from the photos of your outfit is just what you said - context is everything, and without the context of who Nana is, her outfit wouldn't really be something to be commented on. I see it as similar in revealingness/appropriateness as yours (and again, I see nothing wrong with either outfit. AND I have a BIG problem with the notion that people with "athletic builds" can wear skimpier clothes and still be appropriate, as if a rounder body just oozes sexuality in a way that needs to be kept locked down.)
I think that's part of what bothered me about the post in the first place. It's not about her outfit...it's about who she is. Discourse between and about women can be so much deeper and smarter and richer than "OMG she looks like a prostitute," and it should be! Regardless of whether or not we like that person. ;) Thank you for making room for that possibility. I appreciate it, and appreciate the space you've made for my comments.
Jess, given DoctorMama's subsequent post and my own feelings on the matter, I'm not going to post again after this, but: no, that's not what I meant. Partially my fault for euphemism: part of what I was thinking is that DoctorMama and I are both small-chested. A halter top on us is interpreted very differently by most people than on a more-endowed woman. I also think that in our society/culture, more flesh is often equated with more sexuality. More often, not always, tons of caveats. This is not intended to be some blanket statement on What is Sexy for an individual, or on fat positivity or negativity.
This is very difficult for me to phrase but I also feel that your tone implies that we should be entirely neutral about everyone's body. I think we can value everyone even if we take the viewpoint that different bodies look different and leave different impressions in the same piece of clothing.
Well...that leaves me feeling stuck, if you're going to say things that sort of invite my reply, but then aren't willing to engage any further.
I agree that a halter top is interpreted differently by society depending on the body type wearing it. That's kind of what I was saying though...I don't buy my society's promoted belief that curvy bodies are inherently more sexual, and so when I think about who should wear what, I try to leave that out of my calculations because I think it's rooted in some not-nice ideas about women. I realize the way I said that came across as if I was criticizing what you said...and I suppose I was, but only in the sense that I think you are accurately communicating a cultural idea that I am critical of. I know that part was not clear and I apologize for that...I hope it's clearer this time around (although I'm not entirely sure that it is).
I'm not sure how to articulate my response to your second comment. I guess I do think we should value people's bodies equally, or place similar judgments on them regardless of shape. A body is just a body. A curvy body is not inherently more sexual because it is curvy. I often see people suggesting that curvy women have to do things to desexualize their look, and I'm really not comfortable with the way that erroneously hypersexualizes curvy bodies while desexualizing less curvy ones. And then of course, there is the frequent suggestion that fat women should hide their bodies...arms, legs, and even their overall shape. Often when people talk about what is "flattering" it's code for this sort of thing. So very very often, things like "well, that's not a good look for her body type" are really veiled promotions of ideas that I disagree with.
I'm not entirely sure I'm addressing your point though, quite frankly. I'm not sure what it means to say we should or shouldn't be neutral about everybody's body. I think we should value everybody's body. I think we should support everybody's right to wear what they feel good in, regardless of how we interpret their choices based on their body type. I think we should avoid making snarky comments about other women's fashion choices, ESPECIALLY when those comments would be different if the person were skinnier/curvier/had a different body. If that's neutrality, then yes, that is what I believe.
Hey now! These are thoughtful points all, Laurel and Jess.
In the middle of reading this post I had to walk away to do something, and when I came back I forgot what I'd been reading and just started reading the comments about the dress. "WHO IS BEING SO MEAN TO THE NICE DOCTOR MAMA IN SUCH A PRETTY DRESS?" Oh it's you. Well then carry on.
My grandma had a great body, and died when she was a little over 90, but if she'd been wearing that dress, I'd have thought good for her!
Good for you as well. It's a beautiful dress, you wear it beautifully, and anyone who thinks otherwise maybe is not someone you want to be friends with.
Dress = pretty.
Shoes = utilitarian. You could have done better! (Though those are probably what I would have picked also.)
I also noticed that you have some pretty defined deltoids. Are you lifting or are you that cut naturally? If you started doing push-ups in addition to your runs you might gain some definition in your back, i.e. the skin and bones look you complain about is completely fixable if you want. I also noticed that push-ups make my (extremely tiny) boobs look bigger.
My 2 cents.
As for this business about how other women dress, why on earth do we worry about these things. It's not as though Nana or you weren't wearing panties, for goodness sakes (at least not that *I* could tell). And yes, big breasts are sexy and have a completely different impact in a halter top than mosquito bites. Sorry to offend, people. I wish I had bigger breasts so that I could sport some cleavage, but alas I do not.
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